What is it you, as a Non Borderline, most want/need to understand about BPD?

[A.J. Mahari]

From my old message forum for non borderlines:

The question I asked was:

If you could pick one thing that you experience or have experienced with someone in your life (or was in your life) with BPD that you would like to understand better, what would that be? Please keep your responses to brief questions that do not include back-stories.

gabfwb wrote:

I would like to know/understand why a person suffering with BPD cannot learn from their mistakes.  It appears that every day is groundhog day and there is so learning experience from past experiences.  Why is this?

A.J. Mahari wrote:

To truly explain this fully would take more space than I have here. I do talk about this in my ebooks aimed at nons also. However, to give you a response here, briefly, some people with BPD, slowly, in time and over time, will learn some things from past mistakes. Usually this is only the case if they are in and stick with therapy.

For the borderline who is untreated or who isn't really honestly engaging therapy - the borderline in the active throes of BPD - in a "nut" shell essentially can't learn from the day to day "experience" (especially in relational context - emotionally) because they are dissociated from and/or so well protected from the actual "experience" of what is happening in the here and now. Borderlines re-experience their unresolved abandonment trauma, from the past, in there here and now as if it is actually happening "now" when it isn't. Therefore, what "is" actually happening "now" isn't - if you can follow that. It can be quite confusing looking at it from the outside.

Borderlines are locked into patterned, deeply psychologically pathological and dysfunctional ways of not only relating but actually "experiencing" much of what most of us (non borderlines) would agree and define as being "actual unfolding-reality" only through the polarized (emotionally immature) lens of their unresolved abandonment trauma.

Magnolia wrote:

Yes..it really is groundhog day for them.

My partner had to learn the hard way that if he behaved using extreme abuse the police will be called and he will be removed.

Ironically that is all that he learned,not that he believes he did anything wrong only that this behavior would bring this result.
He believes his behavior was justified given his feelings.

He also told me he could never ever forgive me for calling the police Not that he was sorry for his behavior.

Accepting personal responsibility is non existent.

Jim wrote:

Magnolia, I didn't call the police but during an episode two years ago a friend of mine did call them. My wife was arrested for spouse abuse on me. That night her enabling dad bailed her out and took her to the states attorney, she gave her " I am the victim" song and dance and this skirt chasing attorney dropped the charges. Then to make sure all that might have heard what happened might get the right idea, she put her self in a womens shelter. She did what ever she could to make me look bad. For two years she has demonized the person that called the police and made Gods out of everyone that believed her. I of course have never heard the end of it while she tries to hammer a story making it all my fault. I do believe there is a God, because the same States Attorney that dropped her case is now in the investigation of our son that died. He got to see first had how irrational she is and is now demanding she go to a therapist! I just hope God acts more often. I have never heard her say she is sorry, she NEVER takes any responsibility.

A.J. Mahari wrote:

The very sad and difficult reality for nons on the other side of someone with BPD who doesn't take or accept personal responsibility is that nothing can change until and unless they do learn to take personal responsibility. It's a catch-22. They blame you - in "borderline reality" - of course it's your fault (to them). As long as they can blame you they will. As long as they are blaming you and getting others to believe them their victim perceptions - skewed though they usually are - end up being reinforced.

Jim wrote:

Can you tell me what is up with smear campains? I just don't get it. They have a basic fear of abandonment yet go way out of there way to put together these campains that drives me away. The time and energy I have put into putting out fires is about to wear me out.

Finding_Myself_Again wrote:

Hi A.J.

For me the most difficult aspect to accept is when my friend simply ignores me.  This can happen so suddently and so unexpected and hurts so much.  Sometimes I wished he would just start to scream at me and tell me what is botthering him.  Being blocked out totally even ignored as if you were thinner then air, was something which I never experienced in my life before and I personally feel it is the most painfull thing you can do to somebody.  And then a few hours or days later he comes back all smiling as if nothing happened, doesn't even say sorry.... and everything continues until the next time

Jim wrote:

What is the best way to stop a bp from creating illusions and believing in them and from doing smear campains?

Interestedparty wrote:

One thing that I have noticed about people with BPD, is that if they know that their behaviour elicits a reaction from you, they do it more!
If they know something upsets, bothers or frustrates you...... they are guaranteed to continue doing it for the impact! The power in some cases! The attention in others. Like a young spoilt, naughty child.... who keeps pushing a weak Mum who can't enforce boundaries and discipline, to see how far he can go. Each time he goes further he can't believe he got away with it and he learns at that stage the power and control he has and he relishes it. His Mum thinks he is only a child he can't know any better, meanwhile the child is thinking I know how I can get what I want from my Mum by doing this.

The only thing that works with people with BPD is BOUNDARIES AND CONSEQUENCES and sticking to them. The problem with us NONs is because we feel that we love them and on some level and in some cases don't want to lose them (our neediness), we don't enforce those boundaries. We say we are trying to but sometimes, really we are not. We allow them to simply walk back into our lives as if nothing has happened. WHY? Because it is easier to pretend to ourselves everything is Ok NOW, when deep down we know we are just wallpapering over the deep cracks until next time they push the barrier to abuse us...

Who is at fault at this stage? BPD or Us?

A.J. Mahari wrote:

What is the best way to stop a bp from creating illusions and believing in them and from doing smear campains?

While there isn't really any "best way" or even truly effective way to stop a person with BPD from creating illusions, believing them and ending up doing a "smear campaign" - the best thing to do once this starts is inform the "audience" of the BPD about the facts if you can. If they are on the borderline's side, don't bother. The more you can ignore the smear campaign the faster the borderline will, more often than not, tire of it. The desired effect of the borderline engaging in a smear campaign is "control". They are usually trying to control their own feelings of feeling or being out of control. How do borderlines control their own feelings? More often than not, by trying to control others because their sense of "being" is projected out onto the non borderlines they (to one degree or another) are close to and attach to.

A.J. Mahari wrote:

Can you tell me what is up with smear campains? I just don't get it. They have a basic fear of abandonment yet go way out of there way to put together these campains that drives me away. The time and energy I have put into putting out fires is about to wear me out.

Smear campaigns for the borderline are about control. They can also be about punishment, revenge, and trying to gain a sense (even if it is an illusion) of winning. It is all a response to their increasing fear of or re-experiencing of abandonment that the defense mechanisms used to avoid the fear, terror, anxiety etc of getting in touch with any abandonment fear, depression, or pain, often lead those with BPD to smear the non borderline. They want to win what is already lost. They then want to win the "rightness" in it all - they want and need others to believe that you, the non borderline, has done "it all" to them. Borderlines engaged in this behaviour cannot and do not take personal responsibility for their own issues and for why they are now in a place where you, or any non borderline is distanced, moving away, leaving them, or has left them. Borderlines also will behave in ways that cause them to smear non borderlines if their fear of being left - abandoned - starts to rise to a level beyond which they have any other ways of coping. It is also a way to punish the non borderline. Somewhere in the psychologically child-like emotional make-up of the borderline there is likely distorted magical thinking that if they make it too hard for you to leave, you won't leave. This of course makes no sense in reality - only "borderline reality".

[A.J. Mahari]

A.J. Mahari wrote:

Hi A.J.

For me the most difficult aspect to accept is when my friend simply ignores me.  This can happen so suddently and so unexpected and hurts so much.  Sometimes I wished he would just start to scream at me and tell me what is botthering him.  Being blocked out totally even ignored as if you were thinner then air, was something which I never experienced in my life before and I personally feel it is the most painfull thing you can do to somebody.  And then a few hours or days later he comes back all smiling as if nothing happened, doesn't even say sorry.... and everything continues until the next time

What you describe, is sadly, a common experience for many non borderlines. It also leaves the non borderline in a confusing place. You are hurt at having been treated that way and ignored and yet when the borderline comes back, as if nothing happened, that can be invalidating, but what to do? If you bring it up, it can start the whole punishing cycle again, if not, you may have a period of getting along, but at what cost? Continuing to get along to go along, or go along to get along, and if one doesn't confront or address the borderline's behaviour, one can be assured this will happen time and time again. When you allow or choose to let everything continue until the next time you are, in a way, abandoning yourself. The question is, for what? The silent treatment is just one presentation of borderline punishment and/or revenge that keeps on "giving" - giving pain and invisibility to the non borderline while leaving the borderline in an emotional space of feeling entitled to be this abusive without any responsibility whatsoever. It's a classic "no-win" situation.

[A.J. Mahari]

gabfwb wrote:

Is it typical for a bpd to become hard and fast friends with someone they barely know?  In turn this new found friend is just as important to the bpd as someone they have known all their lives.  Why is there no distinction?  Do you agree that this could be very risky behavior?

A.J. Mahari wrote:

I don't know that I'd use the word "typical" but it is very common. It has to do with the whole issue of idealization and devaluation which comes about through the defense of splitting. If the person the BPD is closest to has been split to all-bad = devaluation then it is not uncommon that many with BPD will latch onto someone else quickly and idealize them as all-good. The reality of this more or less instant "connection" with someone else is that it won't last either because at some point that person will disappoint or disillusion the borderline and will be devalued also. There is no distinction, largely because the borderline is very young emotionally - like 2 or 3 years old really and they are (whether they know it or not) looking for a rescuing "mommy" figure (gender doesn't matter) and someone through whom they can feel they exist. To the borderline in this primitive neediness - anyone will do, as long as there is someone. It is also an avoidance of being alone and of being or feeling re-abandoned.

It is absolutely risky behaviour.

kl_73 wrote:

How do you distinguish which person it is in the relationship that is bpd or enmeshed? Can it be both people? Just last night my husbands daughter sent him a text telling him how much she loved him and just wanted him to know that and didn't want him to ever leave her and she wasn't gonna let him slip away from her, but as soon as he  read it he had to call her and make sure she was OK and promise her he would never leave her and he would always be right here. Based on that would you say they are both enmeshed? and is there anything I can do?

A.J. Mahari wrote:

The best way to know which person or if both people, in this care, have BPD, is to have them
seen and assessed by a professional. Both could have BPD, but only a professional can diagnose that.
Both can be enmeshed. In fact, enmeshment is by its definition a dynamic between at least two people.

They may well be enmeshed. When you ask if there is anything you can do, you technically step into the enmeshment yourself. I guess my question in response to you here would be, why do you feel the need to do anything? How your husband relates to his daughter, and she to him, really, would best off left between them. What aspects of that may cause you concern or impact your life, it would benefit you to cope with and make decisions about yourself without any desire or expectation that you want/need to change anything about them.

kl_73 wrote:

I guess I feel the need to do something because the relationship between them is affecting our marriage, it puts me on the back burner to her

His priority is take care of her first and me second and he has even told me that. He has given her things that belong to me without asking me (things that belonged to me before I met him) yet when I tried to tell him how that made me feel I was quote " being a b*&ch"!  Him and his first wife (who is deceased) had the same fights we have over him and his daughter and he tells me I am jealous of his daughter just like his first wife ( her mother) So if his wife and him had the same fights about him and his daughter that me and him have shouldn't that tell him that somethings not right?

He will go as far as talking to her on the phone when we are in the middle of being intimate and don't see a problem with it and wonders why I get upset.

But then he comments on how often my kids call me but i think there is a huge difference being mine that call are 10 and 16 and his daughter is 34 and mine call maybe once every 2 or 3 days and him and her talk up to 10 times a day so to me its not relevant and I try to say that then it starts a huge fight because I am pointing out how old she is and he already knows that and don't have to be told!

I have started questioning why he even married me or needed me? I was told by the person that told me to research enmeshment that I am strictly here for his sexual needs and he is basically married to his daughter that he looks at her as a wife and she him as her husband. can that be true?
 
I have suggested counseling or even talking to a dr for a diagnosis and He basically told me to pack my things and leave (which I did for 2 days) but every time he throws me out he calls and begs me to come back saying he don't understand whats going on, but agrees to cut down on calls between the 2( because they are in excess of 10 times a day)or to let he try to be a grown up and and stand on her own 2 feet, but then he never follows through.
 
So if he refuses to talk to anyone or get help what am I supposed to do?

[A.J. Mahari]

A.J. Mahari wrote:

I guess I feel the need to do something because the relationship between them is affecting our marriage, it puts me on the back burner to her. His priority is take care of her first and me second and he has even told me that. He has given her things that belong to me without asking me (things that belonged to me before I met him) yet when I tried to tell him how that made me feel I was quote " being a b*&ch"! 

Feeling the need to do something is likely healthy and positive. The reality is that what you need to do is something that involves only that which you have any control over. That means you likely need to do something about your own choices because you only have control over you and you can only choose change for yourself - not anyone else.

Him and his first wife (who is deceased) had the same fights we have over him and his daughter and he tells me I am jealous of his daughter just like his first wife (her mother) So if his wife and him had the same fights about him and his daughter that me and him have shouldn't that tell him that somethings not right?

You'd think eh? But even more importantly, what do you think it maybe is telling you? Do you think there is something in this reality that you need to make a choice based upon?

He will go as far as talking to her on the phone when we are in the middle of being intimate and don't see a problem with it and wonders why I get upset.
But then he comments on how often my kids call me but i think there is a huge difference being mine that call are 10 and 16 and his daughter is 34 and mine call maybe once every 2 or 3 days and him and her talk up to 10 times a day so to me its not relevant and I try to say that then it starts a huge fight because I am pointing out how old she is and he already knows that and don't have to be told!

Do you think you might benefit from focusing less on what he is or isn't doing?

I have started questioning why he even married me or needed me? I was told by the person that told me to research enmeshment that I am strictly here for his sexual needs and he is basically married to his daughter that he looks at her as a wife and she him as her husband. can that be true? I have suggested counseling or even talking to a dr for a diagnosis and He basically told me to pack my things and leave (which I did for 2 days) but every time he throws me out he calls and begs me to come back saying he don't understand whats going on, but agrees to cut down on calls between the 2( because they are in excess of 10 times a day)or to let he try to be a grown up and and stand on her own 2 feet, but then he never follows through.
 So if he refuses to talk to anyone or get help what am I supposed to do? 

Rather than focus on him and question why he married you or needed you, how about asking yourself, given what you know now is this the type of person/relationship that you want to be in? I don't know if he is emotionally married to his daughter or not, again, I would challenge you to think less about him and more about you.

If he refuses to get help or talk to anyone, given this is a long-standing pattern of behaving being re his daughter what you can do is decide whether or not you can live with what is. If you can't then you have to make choices and take action and move on. If you can, than you have to know that you cannot change him or his daughter or the way they are relating to each other.

You are negating your own needs and worth in the focus on them. They aren't likely going to change. That's what you have to radically accept - that's what is - that's what you have to make your choices in response to.

Leah wrote:

AJ -- I've become very interested in the topic of BPD after having been unwittingly thrust into the world & unable to understand. Nevertheless, the topic interests me.  Can you please explain the connection between borderlines & narcissists?  My therapist claims "narcissists ARE borderlines, they've just figured out a way of behaving a tiny bit better."  Can you comment on that, or do you have a different theory?

A.J. Mahari wrote:

For many people diagnosed with one or the other, BPD, or NPD, there is the reality that they have both personality disorders. I don't know if all who have NPD have BPD. I know that not all who have BPD have NPD. There are some differences in both speculated causation, symptoms, and even difficulty to treat. NPD is generally viewed as more intractable than BPD. I have written somewhat about this and the differences in my ebook, "The Shadows and Echoes of Self". However, if you really want the nitty-gritty on the two disorders I would also recommend "The Narcissistic and Borderline Disorders: An Integrated Developmental Approach" by James F. Masterson

Finding_Myself_Again wrote:

Hi A.J,

For me the most difficult part to cope with is after one of the 'crisis' as I call it now, my friend calls me or comes to me and acts as if nothing happens.  If I want to start talking about what happened and how it hurt me, he just changes subject or tells me that women think too much and then  acts as if nothing happened.

A.J. Mahari wrote:

It is very typical, unfortunately, for those with BPD to attempt to re-connect, to communicate after a "crisis" or rage or even being abusive without any mention of what happened. There are many reasons for that but the one that I think is most relevant for every non borderline to understand is that the sum total of any and all reasons for this is that "everything is about the borderline". Most with BPD are not interested in how someone else feels. They are that self-absorbed. A narcissistic self-absorption that is often protective and a dysfunctional attempt to overcompensate for their vulnerabilities etc.

The way that he dismisses what you want and/or need to talk about - the way he minimizes your feelings is emotionally abusive. It isn't something that is going to serve you well to accept.

A big part of borderlines being like this has to do with just how emotionally immature they really are. That however, is not to excuse this type of behaviour which, as I said, is emotionally abusive.

It is also indicative that he isn't able to take personal responsibility. These are all huge red flags that are trying to tell you who he is and that likely you would be best to not stay, in anyway, involved with him.

Finding_Myself_Again wrote:

Hi A.J.

Thanks for the reply, I realise more and more how abusive he is and really want to get out of this relationship.  As my friends mother is a psy, I have the feeling she worked with him to somehow when he is e.g. in the office to control his emotions.  On 'bad' moments he just sits very quietly at his desk and doesn't speak to anybody on 'good' moments you can hear him laughing through the building.  Most people just think he is very expressive.  As I got very close to him, little by little I can see that everytime somebody says something 'wrong' (according to him) I get all the anger, the hurt, the sadness,...

I was thinking of telling him on a quiet moment when we are alone, that I know about his BPD and that I understand why he is like this with me, but that I can no longer accept it and if he wants me to stay his friend that he needs to learn to control himself towards me also.  Do you think this is a good idea or do I just stop the relationship with him without giving him an explanation as to the why?

[A.J. Mahari]

A.J. Mahari wrote:

Hi A.J.

Thanks for the reply, I realise more and more how abusive he is and really want to get out of this relationship.  As my friends mother is a psy, I have the feeling she worked with him to somehow when he is e.g. in the office to control his emotions.  On 'bad' moments he just sits very quietly at his desk and doesn't speak to anybody on 'good' moments you can hear him laughing through the building.  Most people just think he is very expressive.  As I got very close to him, little by little I can see that everytime somebody says something 'wrong' (according to him) I get all the anger, the hurt, the sadness,...
I was thinking of telling him on a quiet moment when we are alone, that I know about his BPD and that I understand why he is like this with me, but that I can no longer accept it and if he wants me to stay his friend that he needs to learn to control himself towards me also.  Do you think this is a good idea or do I just stop the relationship with him without giving him an explanation as to the why?

You are welcome. Oh, personally, I wouldn't advise that you tell him you know about his BPD. You understanding about it is one thing, thinking that he will appreciate that or share that with you, is often (in most cases) quite another thing. Do you think this is the sort of friend you want or need in your life? I find that if one must put a condition on friendship, which is essentially trying to "regulate", stipluate, or control how another needs to behave for the friendship to exist, means that it isn't a healthy enough situation to even consider allowing it to continue as a friendship even.

You have every right to take care of yourself and you have no duty or obligation to explain to him why. In most cases in ending a relationship with someone with BPD it is not a very productive effort or positive experience to try to explain why. When someone with BPD isn't, won't, or hasn't yet found a way to accept personal responsibility for their behaviour and unhealthy relating - and/or abusiveness - the likelihood that you will be blamed is very high.

It is best, if you can, to just leave it alone. Take care of yourself and work to not focus on what the thinks or feels. What he thinks and feels is up to him to take care of.

Jim wrote:

I have become my bpd wife's worst enemy. She hates me in every way possible. This of course is all contrived and blown out of proportion. She goes out of her way to find any kind of dirt, she can get to exploit. I am not a saint but my God this has become her obsession to find a way to belittle me in any way possible. Asking her little questions needed to run a house hold are met with anger. She has slept on the couch for I don't know how long. When she gets a call she goes outside to talk. She has scared away most of my friends. She hates me and anything connected to me. Life at home is miserable. I am glad to come to my stressful job for some peace. At this point I do everything to keep the house and family running. I am not enabling these things need done. If I didn't buy my daughter a birthday persent she would not have gotten one. Laundry, dishes, meals are all on me, and she has the audacity to criticise me on top of it. I am hated, I feel hated. The smear campains have left friends and community wondering. My question is how do I get the spot light off of me. I wrote down one of my boundaries and gave it to her when she was calm. She tore it up, threw it at me and began cussing me out, the rage lasted more than a day.

A.J. Mahari wrote:

So sorry to hear what you are dealing with and going through, Jim. Given what you describe, I'm not sure that you can get the spotlight off of you. Do you know what it is that she is so angry about? I mean what she may identify it as? One thing that sometimes works, short-term, is attempting to validate the borderline's "reality" while remaining emotionally disengaged and detached. It is very diffcult to do, let alone do consistently and then, given her behaviour when you tried to set a boundary and she tore up the paper and threw it at you, she may not have the capacity to even feel validated.

Have you sought counseling, either together, or for yourself? Have you looked into the legal things that would be required if you were to decide you have to leave?

Jim wrote:

I am not sure the reason for so much anger, she brought it with her ten years ago. Today her anger is all based on the illusions she created about me. When I look at it all it seems she is threatened by others, who she feels will help me or take me away. So I guess that goes back to abandonment issues.She has built this stories over the years of all the bad things I have done, or what others have done to her, but they are always connected to me. Whenever someone does something against her she can not let it go, and makes them into pure evil. Its been hard to get her in front of a therapist, we were put together twice in counseling with our respective counselors and argument got out of hand. My therapist said she has some deep seated hurt. I have looked into getting a lawyer and a divorce. For a custody battle they want 10 grand as a retainer and there is no guarantee that I will win the kids.My daughter is very fearful of me not being there she knows what is going on and is treated badly alot by her mom. My wife started counseling again yesterday, the states attorney insisted. I was able to write her new counselor before therapy began. I will be taking the legal road when my daughter can be heard by the judge. This state is very conservative, and women usually get the kids.

[kcfree2b]

What do you say when the person says and does things that are way out there? For example what do you say when she says  she didn't pay her rent this month and how the landlord is not understanding, when you were out with her over that same month several times while she excessively spent money  because of a car repair that did not need to happen all at once, and continues to spend money over the next month? When such person goes on about how hard and unfair life is, should you just go along with it? Then there are stories about how horrible her mother is for dating again the man she dated when my loved one was a child, who if stories are true were incredibly neglectful and inconsiderate. Yet my loved in is in her late 50's and is getting bereft about her mother living her own life in her own way and goes on about it, how horrible she is etc., and it seems the only acceptable response is to validate the cognitive dissonance my loved one is experiencing in order to not be on the "out".